#john marston deserves better

[johnmarstonisawolf]

I love both John and Arthur

“RDR1 Represents John’s Character Growth” Argument… 

I’ve seen people get blocked for disagreeing with the types of posts that complain about “Rdr fans disliking John’s characterization in rdr2”.  I’d rather just agree to disagree but if anyone doesn’t like where this post is going, please feel free to use the block button.

Also, in this post, I am repeating some things I’ve written in past responses/posts. Plus I have read other fans’ posts and opinions about this topic, which will be sprinkled throughout this post. 

Here it goes… Mainly for me, it’s the ret-con. It’s not that John can’t be this man with flaws, but in the first game (rdr1) they hint a lot at John (when he’d been in the gang in the past tense, before the events in rdr2) being this quixotic, well-spoken, “right-hand man of Dutch”, which were traits that were all given to Arthur in rdr2. Even Bill and Abigail hint at this. If you want to hear another rdr fan go more in-depth about this, read here. Plus Rockstar in so many words had explained why they made John a humiliation conga because they didn’t want John to “overshadow” Arthur. 

Yes, Arthur is older and yes, John could’ve been influenced by Arthur (but only by so much, I mean, c’mon John and Arthur are their own person). Yet the fact that Arthur is not even mentioned in rdr1 (yes, rdr2 hadn’t even been created yet. I know.) and they decided to “downgrade” John in rdr2 and give all of these admirable traits (they allude to in rdr1 about John) to Arthur is what baffles me. 

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Arthur’s character. However, it’s the high pedestal that this fandom puts him on, emphasizing his positive traits while continually bashing John in the process, that does me in.

We get it, John wasn’t a good father or a good husband, he treats his wife and kid like crap (he gets better tho), he deserves whatever criticism he gets for those horrible actions of his, but we got to remember this is the Wild West; Abigail nor John had the resources or skills to deal with their own trauma much less even raise a boy in a gang, especially Abigail. But that’s not downplaying the fact that John is a very emotionally-mentally damaged person (as a result of many forms of abuse and being raised by Dutch, Hosea, and Arthur, who aren’t the best examples) while at the same time, Abigail is a very emotionally-mentally damaged person (as a result of many forms of abuse and being raised and working in a brothel) who’s had to carry a kid for 9 months and march on through with barely having much help, aside from some individuals in the gang who helped her—I’m not gonna go with the narrative that not a single person in the gang helped. 

Listen, it’s not that we can’t handle seeing John being this pathetic version of himself that the devs chose to portray him as in rdr2 (so he wouldn’t overshadow Arthur and lazy writing) or that we can’t watch him grow from this immature and flawed human being to a man who loves his wife and child and would do anything for them… but it’s how it was done and how rockstar did it. 

They also did Johnny boy’s physical character design very poorly in the epilogue; in the epilogue (1907) he barely showcases any of the traits we see in (1911) rdr1 (a four-year difference, timeline-wise, which really isn’t that long). Although NPC John and Epilogue John might look different from each other, their personalities aren’t much different. So there’s not much of a change in my opinion.

Also, I just want to clarify that this post isn’t about the fandom preferring Arthur over John but more so about how John’s characterization was done in rdr2 compared to rdr1, which can’t merely be attributed to “character growth” rather than lazy writing.  Understandably, many people prefer Arthur over John. Hence compared to the first game, rdr2 has better accessibility, players get to go more into the protagonist’s mind, and many game mechanics have improved/developed since rdr1 was released. But rdr1 was an acclaimed game when it came out with many fans that still remain in this fandom, in spite of rdr2’s wider exposure. 

And if I was going to mention anything that the games were kind of consistent with when it came to John’s characterization, is that he has a dry and cynical personality that reflects the protagonists of old spaghetti westerns, and the unforgiving world that makes up the Wild West.

Personally, while I do like his character in both games (he’s my fave) I still feel like there’s a bit more they could’ve done with his character in rdr2, in regards to missions and stuff, I would even say the devs had put more effort into some supporting characters compared to John, but that’s just my opinion. And I was really hoping for a rdr1 remaster but more so in a Yakuza Kiwami way (amped-up gameplay, fixed plot holes, better character detail, quality improvements, etc…)

[miralo0]

Part 3

Hope those don't look too weird because I was drawing them from my memory

[henrycavillary]

after blowing the bridge;

Red Dead Redemption 2 | The Bridge to Nowhere

[javierduffy]

transing jack marston’s gender because john marston was born to be a girldad

[fablexdreams]

John and Dutch's relationship has me sobbing on a good day and having a full on mental breakdown on a bad one. If Arthur is like Hosea, then John is like Dutch; authority issues, conflicting emotions, false bravado, and all. If John seeing Dutch in rdr2, "broke his heart," I don't even wanna imagine what he was going through during and after THAT scene in the first game. It's clear, and literally stated by John himself, how much he loves Dutch, and how conflicted his feelings are toward him. The thought of John finding out that Dutch, the only father figure he has left alive, the man who saved him from hanging and gave him a family at the age of 12, was gonna leave him die in prison, and then later on the train...it...I'm so normal about this; it's fine.

[daisydood]

why cant the red dead developers leave ONE main character happy. they made three protagonists and they either died in a horrible way or are now extremely sad and lonely. jack has absolutely no one unless he can track down Sadie or Charles i am gonna be SICK

[ghost-qwq]

silly little characters in my screen, surely nothing will go wrong with them ^^

[choco-1601]

Sometimes I find it amusing how people seem to dump all of their anger on micah when it was dutch who started this whole mess. Micah deserves the blame obv but let's not forget dutch was so eager to rob that train in the FIRST CHAPTER instead of laying low. Even hosea was against him. They barely escaped the heat from Blackwater too. Look hate micah all u want but remember dutch also has blood of all the gang members that has passed away in his hands as well as micah. He's stupid, narcissistic and pretty much a cult leader. He has a brain but he lost the ability to think after the Blackwater shit. Can't believe people still blame the trolley accident for his brain damage lmfao thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

I hate dutch bc he abandoned John and eventually abandoned Arthur too. Him killing micah didn't mean anything bc he became way way worse in rdr

[por-queeee]

Ooooh I am SCREAMING about this still thank you again for drawing them for me Lego. They are giving me the will to live right now.

Everyone should go commission Lego, she is an art god

true canon ending to rdr2

commission for @neonxdecay / @por-queeee!!

[ak319]

★ Oh Scandalous, Scandalous Men

I Reader is Arthur's sis, just playful bantering I

You and Sadie are perched on a log by the campfire, legs crossed, the sun is setting, casting a golden glow over the camp, and most of the men are milling about doing their own things.

Perfect timing.

Y/N: (gasping theatrically, nudging Sadie’s arm as you point across the camp) "Oh no, Ms. Adler! Would you just look at Marston over there?"

Sadie: "Haw, tsk, tsk, tsk. Showin’ his ankles like some common hussy. Where’s his decency?"

John: (looking up from fixing a wheel, hearing his name) "What?"

Y/N: (shaking your head, sighing in utter disappointment) "Ankles, John. Both of ‘em. Just out in the open like that. Ain’t proper."

John: "My ankles?! What are you--dammit, I ain’t got time for this nonsense! You both jus' always yappin' shit-" (returns to work, ignoring)

Sadie: (clicking her tongue, turning to you) "Guess Abigail lets him run around like that. Poor woman. She must be so embarrassed. Imagine (Y/N), father of her child, acting out like that in the open. No manners or soft spokenness in that one , I tell ya'. Don't know how she tolerates all that."

(Y/N): "Yeah, she really needs to keep him in line. Tells ya why he still is a spinster, though."

Sadie: "Men these days... no modesty or delicacy left in ‘em."

Arthur: (walking by with a cup of coffee, pausing as he catches the tail end of your conversation) "What the hell are you two squawkin’ about now?"

Y/N: "Speak of the devil. You’d better watch yourself too, brother. That shirt of yours is showing a lot of skin. You seriously can't be ruining my name now."

Sadie: (snickering) "Yeah, Morgan. Cover up, will ya? Gotta keep it respectable ‘round here."

Arthur: (deadpan, raising an eyebrow as he sips his coffee) "Y’all lost your damn minds, haven’t ya?"

Y/N: "Excuse us, but we’re simply concerned citizens. The least you could do is take our advice if you want to survive in this society as a man. Stop shaming our family's name, please."

Sadie: "Mhm. Wouldn’t want ya temptin’ anyone. Y’know, like poor Karen over there. She’s got delicate...sensibilities."

Karen: (from a distance) "I’m drunk, not delicate, Sadie!"

Arthur: (chuckles as he turns to leave, muttering under his breath) "I reckon I’ll take my chances with the wolves. They’re quieter than the pair of you."

Y/N: (calling after him) "Arthur! Don’t walk away when we’re talkin’ modesty! That’s how rumours get started."

Sadie: (choking on laughter, wiping her eyes as she leans back) "Lord, we should do this daily!."

Y/N: (doubling over) "Yeah, and they deserve it. Someone’s gotta keep ‘em in check."

AN: had this in drafts for so long😭

taglist: @shackspossum @nayykura @whalecage

[lesbian-for-arthur-morgan]

Request : first time holding hands

I’d love to see their reactions 😭

First Time Holding Hands

Short Headcanons || Gender Neutral Language!

Genre: Fluff Featuring: Arthur Morgan, John Marston, Dutch Van Der Linde, Javier Escuella, Charles Smith, Sean MacGuire, and Sadie Adler Warnings: None

AN: A shorter post today! Thank you so much for requesting these were so fun to write I literally love doing cute little moments with these characters ~ I hope I answered the way you meant !! lol I feel like I got a little off track in some ---> Requests are open! Check out guidelines if you have any questions :)

<><><><>

Arthur Morgan:

This man is a nervous wreck around you. Especially when you first start showing feelings for each other.

It took a million years for him to even admit that he was a little sweet on you, he is definitely not initiating anything past that point.

He can barely believe that you like him back.

The first time you grab his hand is not during anything special.

You’re sitting in the front of a wagon with him while on the way into town. The sun is casting a golden sheen across the earth, the air is warm but not hot, and the birds are swooping and playing in the sky overhead.

Without much thought you reach down to where he’s resting his arm on his thigh and envelope his hand with your own.

He tenses up at the contact, scared to make any sudden moves in case he might scare you away.

He doesn’t look at you directly, instead just glancing at you from the side of his eye. He wonders if you meant to do that or if you just did it by accident.

How your hand would end up on his on his thigh he doesn’t know.

When your thumb starts stroking the skin around his knuckle, tough and calloused from a few too many brawls, he starts to melt and relax a little bit.

He flips his hand around, which makes you pull away slightly, and fits his fingers in between yours. That way he’s holding your hand back and it’s a mutual.

There’s a blush on his cheeks and a grin on his lips. Not a word is spoken, but Arthur relishes the comfortable silence as he tries to think of what on earth he could have done to deserve something so perfect - to deserve you.

John Marston:

John is not a touchy-feely kind of guy. Not at first anyways. He doesn’t get what you see in him. He doesn’t understand why of all the men in the world - Hell, all the men in camp - you chose to waste your time with him.

He’s angsty like that.

He knows of your feelings for him and he gave a strong inclination that he might like you back but never confessed anything really. He figured you understood him enough to know.

You did, but he’s hard to read sometimes.

The first time you hold hands, he actually initiates it. You try not to overstep any boundaries with him, so he always has to make the first moves.

While playing a few practice rounds of poker (John is trying to teach you to play/play better), jokes are being thrown back and forth and rocks are being used as chips for show.

When John’s focus is pulled to the cards in his hands, you take the opportunity to try and grab a few rocks from his pile to add to your own as a little joke.

John catches you and places his large hand on top of your own making you freeze. A smug grin is plastered on his face and he doesn’t even look at you before placing his cards down, showing off a winning hand.

“Read ‘em and weep, Darlin’,” He laughs but never removes his hand from yours.

A small blush rises to your cheeks and his gaze falls to your combined hands. He curls his fingers under your own so that he’s fully holding your hand in his.

You try to catch his eye, but he’s so focused on his large, scarred hand covering your softer skin. It eats at him a little; a guilty feeling settles into his chest.

You place your other hand on his cheek and press on it lightly to direct his head to look at you. You smile one of your so-sweet smiles that makes his stomach ache a little with admiration, and he grins.

The two of you sit there for a while and continue trying to play poker each with one hand.

Dutch Van Der Linde:

Dutch has always been really hands-on with you. (Wink Wink)

He’s flamboyant, a show-off, cocky, and passionate. He loves to show you off and show off to everyone that you are his.

The first time he holds your hand, it’s to explicitly show that you are his and he is yours.

Most times after that, when Dutch holds your hand it means that the two of you are connected, not two people but one. Not just a couple but a unit.

He’s dramatic that way.

The very first time he holds your hand is during an argument with Hosea. A few things about camp affairs come up, plans are being thrown around, and Hosea makes a comment suggesting that you don’t need to be there for their conversation.

Dutch glares at the older man and reaches down to grasp your hand in his.

“But Daddy I love him!” Vibes I’m not going to lie.

He stands a little taller now that he’s touching you, it makes him feel stronger and more sure of what he’s saying. He puffs out his chest and looks down his nose at Hosea.

Hosea rolls his eyes a little and puts his hands up in surrender, telling Dutch that he can do what he wants.

When Hosea leaves, Dutch uses your entwined hands to pull you towards his side a little bit and hold you in an embrace.

He calls you his partner in crime, his other half, and a million other sultry things he can think of that causes a heat to rise in your chest.

He doesn’t let you go for the rest of the night after that, choosing to show off to the rest of the gang members that you two belong together and will always be.

Javier Escuella:

Javier values romance in a relationship.

Maybe nothing incredibly grand - but sweet notes, acts of service, small gifts here and there - he likes to show you how much he loves you through actions more than anything else.

All that and more is shown later on in your relationship. At first, though, Javier is more protective than romantic when it comes to you. It keeps him from showing his emotions at times, and makes him oblivious to your feelings other times.

He just doesn’t know what’s too much because he feels a lot of things, but he wonders if showing all that too soon will scare you away. His feelings are so intense that he gets scared away from you sometimes.

The first time he holds your hand is when you knick yourself while trying to do tricks with one of his knives.

You envy the way he’s able to just do the flips and graceful switches with the blades, and even how he can effortlessly play that five-finger-fillet game.

So, naturally, you try to replicate a trick you’ve seen him do a million times and it ends with a little gash on the heel of your palm.

It’s barely bleeding and looks more like a scrape, but as you hiss in pain Javier has forgotten his chore as he rushes to see what you’ve done to yourself.

He tsks at you and gently wraps his fingers around your wrist to get a better look at the wound.

You’ve forgotten the scrape at this point as his touch is sending jolts of adrenaline through your arm and his face is so close to yours you could count his eyelashes if you wanted to.

He doesn’t notice, too busy looking to see if you’ve mortally wounded yourself. When he’s satisfied that you won’t die, he looks up at your face (Which is dark with a blush and you’re trying to avert your gaze from him, but you just can’t).

He doesn’t understand what’s gotten into you until he sees your joined hands and a knowing grin cracks into his face.

“I’ll kiss it, make it better,” He murmurs and presses a slow, tender kiss to the palm of your hand while gazing up into your eyes the entire time.

He knows what he’s doing.

Charles Smith:

I genuinely feel like Charles is the most well rounded of the group when it comes to his emotions and how he conveys what he’s feeling to you.

Communication king for sure.

The first time Charles holds your hand it’s like he’s always done it.

It’s so natural to him that there really is no concrete first time that changed the meaning of your relationship or created some big deal.

Charles isn’t really someone who likes to show off and isn’t into public displays of affection. Brief hugs and hand holding are the only things he can bring himself to do with you if there are other people present.

He likes to hold your hand a lot despite that. Kissing, groping, or anything even a little heated is a big no for him (in private it is another story), so he likes to have your hands intertwined more often than not.

At first he would come up to you and hold his hand out, palm up, with a quirked brow as if asking you to place your hand in his. You oblige, of course, and he would follow you around camp or vice versa.

Now, Charles doesn’t even bother asking before he comes up to you and just grabs your hand whenever he sees you.

There’s no question about it, the two of you are always connected.

If he can see you he is by your side holding on to you.

It’s not possessive (unlike Dutch cough cough), but it’s more for his own comfort. He likes being near you and he likes that you seem to enjoy being near him.

Charles finds his twin flame in you, his other half. Much more than a soulmate, but his person.

Sean MacGuire:

Sean never really knows where the two of you stand in terms of a relationship.

He flirts with you over and over and over again. You laugh and blush occasionally, but end up telling him to shut up and wandering off.

He knows that he can come off as a sarcastic ass, but he didn’t realize that it’s so intense that you can’t even tell that he’s genuinely trying to get you to notice him as more than a friend/fellow gang member.

The thing is, it is hard for you to tell. Sean isn’t known for being the most serious guy in the world and you’ll be damned if you let him make fun of you by flirting with you and making you swoon or something.

The first time you hold hands with Sean is also consequently the first time you see Sean’s feelings for you are genuine, not some trick.

You turn away from Sean after he’s thrown yet another flirty remark at you, but before you even have the chance to mutter “Shut up, MacGuire” He’s shot out and wrapped his fingers around your own in a strong grip. It doesn’t hurt, but you can’t just pull away and tell him to stop messing around.

You turn back and look down at your conjoined hands.

“Please,” He begs and pulls you an inch closer. “Listen to me.”

You can hardly focus on anything but the warmth of his hand in yours and the way it makes your heart swell and tingle.

He explains his feelings for you, every last one of them. Some were a little more explicit and detailed than you expected, but you appreciated the straight forward honesty.

Let’s just say after that conversation the two of you hold hands and more pretty often in the future.

Sadie Adler:

Sadie and you hold hands all the time. She literally cannot tell how you feel about her.

Is this a friendship? Is it more? She has no idea because you’re so comfortable with her that the line between friends and partners is so blurred Sadie isn’t even sure if there was a line to begin with.

One night, you and Sadie are lying outside the tent that you share stargazing. Sadie is telling you what she knows about the stars and you chime in every now and then with your own little details. She loves the excitement in your voice when you remember the story to a constellation or find one that you hadn’t notice last time.

Your bodies are close, but your hands are closer. Lying in the grass, Sadie can feel the heat from your fingers and hers twitch and beg to touch yours.

She’s nervous, though, to take the relationship further. She doesn’t know if she’s ready to admit what she wants.

While she’s debating if it’s worth it, your pinky finger stretches and curls around her own. She audibly gasps at the action and her head whips over to see if you realize what you’re doing.

You’re already gazing at her with soft eyes and a small smile. It makes her bones turn to jelly at the sight and she tries to speak, but the only thing that escapes her mouth are sharp exhales as her words get tangled in her throat.

She tightens her pinky finger around yours, and you understand the meaning behind it.

It was all still confusing, but Sadie knew one thing: Friends don’t look at each other like that.

<><><><>

I love Sadie so much y'all don't even know

Hope you enjoyed!!

[yourlocalhistorynerd315]

God, why does Jack Marston have to have such a sad life. He loses so many people he sees as family, especially Arthur, in RDR2. Micah wanted to leave him orphaned in RDR2 when the Pinkertons took Abigail to hang her and when John was presumed dead. He loses so many people that were close to him so quickly, he didn't even have time to process it. Then in RDR1 He loses Uncle and his father in a matter of minutes and then loses his mother not even four years later. There's dialogue from Jack in RDR1 (dependent on your honor level from what I heard) that just shows Jack is incredibly depressed. He deserves so much better

[fablexdreams]

Do yall think that John was hurt and jealous when he found out that Dutch and Hosea went fishing with Arthur at the start of chapter 3 but didn't bring him? Idk, the mission just felt...wrong without him, y'know? Maybe I'm projecting, but I'd feel so left out and alone if I was John lmao. Everyone always thinks and says that John is Dutch's favorite, that he's the 'golden boy', but he is left out of things and pushed aside an awful lot for being so golden. Even with the random stories we get about the 'old days' from the gang sometimes, it hardly ever feels like John has any of them. John has always given me lonely vibes, and i know a lot of people argue that its just his lone wolf personality, but I can't help but wonder if it's by choice or not. If that's how John wanted it to be, or if it was just what he had always known. I just wish we could have gotten more moments of Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, and John all together. It all started, and ended, with them after all.

[brothermoth]

songs that give me rdr2 feels

Dust in the Wind — Kansas (it's Arthur's song, full stop. Themes of futility and the realization that life is fleeting? It's him, baby.)

All the Pretty Horses — Laura Gibson (Kieran's song without a doubt. That grubby little man deserved so much better)

For a Few Good Men— Amigo the Devil (another Arthur song. It feels so bittersweet and full of longing, really just makes me think of him and Mary and the life they could have had).

Welcome Home, Son — Radical Face (God this song just has Jack vibes. Its very Marston family coded).

Borealis— The Huntress and Holder of Hands (John and Abigail song. Thank you)

Wolf— First Aid Kit (Marston family depression. I love them so much guys)

[verdemoun]

is there like a comprehensive guide somewhere about the timewarp au thing because i keep seeing you post about it but i've only been following you for a little while so i'm not at all as caught up on the lore as i'd like to be 💔 could you maybe summarise the most basic important info and aspects of it like you were explaining it to a complete outsider ?

I will hopefully be making one is the not too distant future because timewarp definitely got way bigger than I ever anticipated and is still providing me loads of fun to write. pinned post coming in the next month hopefully and a better tagging system so people can find stuff easier

origins: timewarp part 1, timewarp part 2, how does death work in timewarp, timewarp timeline

td;lr: the van der linde gang and other important characters from rdr canon are transported exactly 100 years into the future from their moment of death - which may or may not be due to the whims of magical time travelling quasi-deity josiah trelawney

as part of timewarping the gang still experience and remember their deaths and the events of canon. they also often need to wait years to be reunited following the dates of canon wherever possible, and pass the time learning how to live in modern era and otherwise getting up to antics they didn't have time to while outlaws.

the canon timewarp cast, in rough order of death: bessie matthews, annabelle, eliza, isaac morgan, mac callander, davey callander, jenny kirk, jake adler, sean macguire, kieran duffy, hosea matthews, lenny summers, molly o'shea, susan grimshaw, arthur morgan, eagle flies, karen jones, alden carruthers, leopold strauss, micah bell iii, sadie adler, charles smith, abigail (addie) marston jr, javier escuella, bill williamson, dutch van der linde, uncle, john marston, abigail marston, jack marston.

some funky ocs who turn up: kai bell (descendant of amos bell), maeve macsummers (daughter of sean macguire and karen jones), lucy shelley (molly o'shea's wife)

characters who did not timewarp due to me thinking they deserve a fix-it happy ending in canon era: mary-beth gaskill, tilly jackson, simon pearson, reverend swanson, rains fall, mary linton.

i will however answer asks about how i think absolutely any character would react to being timewarped (special shoutout to darragh macguire)

[yandereunsolved]

could definitely see darling who's one of the soilders is big bosses group fleeing if they found out about the 3s obsession, or simply realized the whole operation truly was, if they joined an enemy force too?

side note: these games deserves so much love. I have only begun playing but they are put together well. and the lore is like so yummy. f's in the chat for the yanderes. their potential is so underutilized. 'wake up soldiers! time to get sexy AND obsessive!'

Oh. This is a situation that would lead to Ocelot interrogating their darling.

It's one thing if darling just wants to be a civilian. They can set something like that up. You are still in their vicinity but removed from everything. Which would actually be pretty nice for them all things considered (it's easier to isolate and manipulate you. and you'll become less vigilant and soldier-like. so it'll become even harder to escape).

but betraying them and trying to join the enemy!?

In the words of John Marston 'Give me that! I'm your old friend amnesia.' After darling is interrogated they'll mysteriously forget who they are. anyone who knew them previously didn't. they wake up with three concerned partners who explain the situation. 'you were injured in battle. you must have lost your memory.'

and what better opportunity than that to have you love them? It's ashame it had to come to that. you were just too valuable to discard. and now you're all theirs. ;)